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Because the extreme right is so   blatantly unconstitutional, because    – A story that gave me hope was
            perverse, but so intelligently perverse,   she proposes the submission of the   that of the flat-earther who, through
            that it thrives because it appropriates   secular state to religion. It is about   personal experience, discovered that
            two differentiating characteristics of   the submission of the state and   the earth is round. Do the Bolsonaristas
            the human condition. See, if we talk   public policies to the doctrine it   with whom you would sit at the table
            about human, we necessarily talk about   defends. And you realize that there   have this perspective of overcoming
            narrative. There is no human group   comes a time when the cultural war   things?
            contacted by anthropologists that does   is no longer enough, because the   Yes, I was inspired too! As for the
            not have a special way of describing a   category it brought to deal with   Bolsonarists, I must express myself
            world, of describing themselves, the   this is the category of evil. Evil is   better here. I propose that we make a
            origin of things. It is the narrative as the   a fascinating question, which is at   distinction between Bolsonaro voters
            very essence of the human. Secondly,   the origin of Dostoevsky’s Crime   and Bolsonarists. A Bolsonarista is
            finiteness. That is, the awareness that   and Punishment . It›s fundamental   someone who, for example, idolizes
            we have that we are, yes, beings for   in Brothers Karamazov too. How   Carlos Brilhante Ustra, who is sexist,
            death. The extreme right uses both   to understand it in its essence, in   homophobic, transphobic, who has no
            things in a very perverse way. In the   its radicality? It is a philosophical,   concern with equality in any instance
            pandemic, finitude failed. The cultural   literary and theological question. Evil   and who always believes in the law of
            war stopped being a dispute over   as a category has no place in politics.   the strongest. For this reason, he is
            narrative and became a way of life. It is   Because politics is the art in the polis   an ardent supporter of armaments.
            not enough to dispute narratives about   of negotiating differences. Bringing   With these people, it is very difficult to
            the number of deaths, it is necessary   the category of evil into politics is   think about dialogue, because there are
            to take a chloroquine kit. The narrative   radically denying politics. This is to   practically only differences. And these
            about coffins buried with stones is   say that what is desired is a state   people are not necessarily interested
            not enough, it is necessary to wear a   that has a theocratic character and   in listening to something that is not
            mask in a deliberately wrong way, on   a fundamentalist vocation. It is the   a reflection of their convictions. But
            the forehead, on the chin and never on   cultural war finally transformed into   I believe that in the 58 million votes
            the respiratory tract. The cultural war   a spiritual battle. It›s no small threat.  that Bolsonaro received on October 30,
            was losing its place in life.                                       2022, not even 20% fit into this category.
                                                  – And what about art in this   And I say based on something very
                – Does it surpass itself through   battle?                      concrete. The moment of greatest
          its own radicality?                 Nobody knows the answer. What     decline in Bolsonaro’s popularity during
            Yes. It takes on a religious character.  I’ve been thinking is that we need a   the pandemic, he fell precisely to 20%
                                              double perspective: short, medium   approval from the electorate, when
                – We’ve reached tire lovers…  and long term. What I am going to   neo-Pentecostal support became
            And to those who seek help from aliens.   say now is not understood by many,   decisive for him to maintain any political
            Do you remember how they used to   but it is life. I really want to be able   possibility. And I differentiate these
            place their cell phones horizontally   to talk to Bolsonaro supporters at a   Bolsonaro supporters from the eventual
            over their heads? You know why?   table soon. Preferably, as Deleuze   Bolsonaro voter. This is someone who
            Because, if it were vertical, how would   said, at a round table, which is the   is unhappy with the system, or a radical
            the aliens read the  SOS request?!   table proper to philosophy. In the   anti-pT member, or someone whose
            Cognitive dissonance in vein. The   medium and long term, education,   daily life has not really improved much
            same thing happened in the United   art and literature will be unavoidable.   in recent years. Because there is a real
            States. Support is now less the   But in the short term, for the medium   difficulty in the daily lives of the most
            worship of a political myth and more   and long term to be possible, for the   vulnerable people in Brazil. With these,
            the veneration of the religious leader.   generous perspective to have time to   I believe, it is possible to talk. Talking,
            The Economist magazine published   develop, I only see one alternative: the   however, does not mean that they will
            an article at the beginning of the year   rigor of the law. If there is no rigorous   become left-wing voters. They have
            saying that the majority of Trump›s   punishment for the organizers of   every right to be right-wing, center-
            supporters believe that he is chosen   the coup, financiers, military police,   wing, liberal. The problem only arises
            by God.                           generals who acted by action or   when dialogue becomes unfeasible
                                              omission, we will return to the eternal   due to the other’s intention to eliminate
                – In a way, did this happen at   dilemma of the unresolved memory of   everything that is not the mirror. But
          the Paulista demonstration, including   the 1964 military dictatorship. That is,   I will repeat: for this to be possible in
          this passing of the baton from Jair   how the military were never punished   the short term, a rigorous perspective
          Bolsonaro to Michelle Bolsonaro?    because they imposed blackmail to   is strictly indispensable. Especially in
            Yes. Something very symptomatic:   allow redemocratization, the amnesty   a country that has such an unresolved
            many deputies and former ministers   of August 1979. If this is repeated now,   memory of the military dictatorship,
            were barred. Mário Frias, Ricardo   they will return much stronger in 2026.   a country that was not able – even
            Salles, Júlia Zanatta, Carla Zambelli,   Without this rigorous perspective, the   during redemocratization – to judge the
            Bia Kicis, Osmar Terra did not join   delusion of the Bolsonarist extreme   crimes committed by the armed forces
            the electric trio: all those who are   right will not know the fundamental   during the dictatorship. In this sense,
            radically Bolsonarists from the point   point for its overcoming, What a reality   an amnesty today, in 2024, would only
            of view of the cultural war. Those who   check! Those who are now facing very   reinforce the coup and authoritarian
            rose have a stronger association with   serious sentences have understood, in   tendency of these same armed forces
            neo-Pentecostalism, with religion.   the most traumatic way possible, that   and all civilians who actively supported
            Michelle Bolsonaro’s speech is    the world is not limited to WhatsApp.  the coup movement.

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