Page 114 - ARTE!Brasileiros #40

EXCLUSION, ART AND THE PLACE OF SPEECH ENGLISH VERSION

Yes. It was later that I realized that everything was connected, Obviously, the issue of clean energy is crucial. It is not possible
that there was no such thing as doing just this or that. Some to find solutions that always lead to the devastation of natural
people sometimes tell me, “No... You’re a photographer!” Then resources. I think it is essential to develop and invest in the research
they go to Inhotim and realize that my stuff can relate a lot more of alternative energy sources. But it is a great violence to want to
to cinema and installations than to photography. I work with take concepts from a society like ours, which is already so decadent,
several connections: cinema, music, photography. The problem to one that still has such different notions about what it means
is that there are still curators who are too orthodox and want to live together. It is an extremely bad thing what is happening in
their exhibitions to be divided. This reasoning is something that, Belo Monte. I do not see anything positive about that. And there is
in terms of art and creation, is deeply negative. another fundamental question: generate more energy for what?
And reductionist... To power more refrigerators and appliances? We live in a wasteful
It is curtailing and impoverishing. And there are few critics with a system, and this obsolescence is one of the worst habits we can
broader vision. Paulo Herkenhoff—perhaps the most interesting have. I, for instance, who worked a lot with photography, learned
that I know of—is one of the few who has it. A person who was once the language practicing and never had a fetish for machines. Today,
a conceptual artist and has a very interesting open-mindedness. there is a huge obsession with digital cameras. I find it difficult
There is Mario Pedrosa, who is interesting, but very constrained. talking to other photographers because of this fetish.
Paulo is rich in ideas. I made a book with him (Notes on The Tides, Is the subject recurring?
2010), and I could see it up close. We had ideas that led to others Yes, there is always someone ecstatic because there is a new
and revealed this generous side of art, which is very necessary. camera that does this, another that does that. In my professional
We cannot think of art in terms of market alone and say, “I will life, I’ve never discussed these issues, and I don’t intend to start
not do this, because it will not pay off.” now. This is something that is closely linked to this rampant
Your return from Switzerland took place on the eve of the AI-5, consumption. Equipment is a basic thing you need to have to
amidst a whirlwind of events. Before we turn the recorder on, produce what you want to show or say. It is not the end. It is a
you said that, because of the constant demonstrations, you only simple means, period. I started editing images in the first version
had three months of classes at ESDI. What was your degree of of Photoshop and, shortly after I had mastered everything, Adobe
engagement in the social and political issues of that period? released a new version, with all of the tools in different places. A
I’ve always had a lot of political awareness, but I’ve never taken huge pain, but, of course, a way to take our concentration, because
sides. I am perhaps much more attached to the anarchic system we are living the age of de-focus. Returning to Belo Monte, building
than to this right / left polarized system. I found this movement a power plant to generate more energy in a place that involves
interesting, but I confess that it all seemed like a lot of blather, too decimating the lives of several villages is a criminal idea.
much debate and talk for nothing. At ESDI, the classes stopped to Going back to the generational question, you, who watched the
discuss the possibility of restructuring the curriculum and making whole process closely, what is your assessment of the recent
it more appropriate to the Brazilian reality. With that, the entire democratic period?
design project based on Bauhaus’s experiences would simply be We can pretend that democracy exists, but in fact it does not. When
wasted. I do not agree with this mindset of throwing one thing away George W. Bush was elected President of the United States, for
to build another. We must absorb the richest things from each part example, the whole world realized that not even there democracy is
of the world. In 1968, repression was on the verge of entering its that democratic. What happened there was an fraudulent election.
most ominous moment here, and in the worst time, during the To this day I do not understand why Al Gore did not have the
Medici administration, between 1970 and 1972, I was in New York. balls to reverse this. The point is that these people are all about
I have always been very individualistic, and my protests, my rage money. The American ideal is money. There is a smaller part of the
against social injustice were always put on my photographs and population that really stands for the country’s ideals of freedom,
films. That was my way of showing my political convictions. The freedom of speech, to do whatever you want without interference,
richness of the individual must always be maintained. but since 2001 these issues have been abandoned and have
Does the fact that you have isolated yourself here in Araras given way to all this propaganda about fearing the invasion of
have anything to do with this sense of individuality? the other. A completely fascist stance by a country that became
In a way, I am underground in my essence. The fact that I am fascist by defending the struggle against the fascists. We have
the son of a diplomat, in itself, already assigns the person succeeded in establishing democratic governments here. I think it’s
the marginality of nationality. Being a person who works with wonderful that Dilma is showing her own personality. These days
photography, painting, drawing, cinema, is also underground I saw her astral map on the Globo and found it very interesting.
because the system tries to define you the entire time as only She is considered an unorthodox Sagittarian, a person with few
one thing. I am here and I still feel marginal. I am surrounded by friends who wants to do the right things. We will see what lies
middle-class people with whom I have absolutely nothing to do. ahead. We don’t even know if, in 2012, a tsunami will come and
When I did my piece with the Caiapós and with other Indians, swallow everything... (this interview, as we said, was conducted
I wanted to expose a society that offered alternatives to the in August 2011).
established society. I could not put several ideas into practice, You spoke about astral maps and now in the world swallowed
but I did the photography for several films by a guy called Alceu by tsunamis... What do you think of these things, Miguel?
Massari. Very political films, denouncing absurd situations in the All these questions are part of self-knowledge. It is information
villages. In 1983, invited by the chiefs, I was able to enter a village that you pick up throughout life and wonder if they may hold any
in Caiapós because I had already gone there to photograph a truth or not. These issues don’t come just from deceitful people.
gold mine in the area. It was a very rich experience in terms of It’s like candomblé. A pai de santo or a mãe de santo are able
contrasts of societies. Ten years later there was an internal split to promote experiences that reach beyond our understanding.
in the village. In that period, they were like imperialist warriors They stimulate that part of the brain that people insist on not
and survived like that for a long time, but ten years later Indians learning to use. Society makes us lose these things, but we know
were already using helicopters and airplanes. how to use them intuitively since we were children. The Museum
It is inevitable to talk about what is happening in Belo Monte, of the Unconscious, for instance, created by Dr. Nise da Silveira,
with several tribes at risk of mass dispersion. is more important to me than many art museums. A lot of new

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